A page on the University of Dayton’s website recommends that students avoid using gendered language, including “husband” and “wife.”...
"As a Christian and educational community, we recognize that every person has innate dignity because all people are made in the image and likeness of God and we seek to create an environment where all persons feel respected, safe, and valued," the website explains.
University of Dayton:
The College of Arts and Sciences offers more than 50 undergraduate and graduate degree programs across the arts, humanities, natural sciences and social sciences. Each program is rooted in our Catholic traditions and Marianist heritage to promote lifelong intellectual, personal and professional growth.
I have my theological differences with the Roman Catholic Church, but they are minor compared to the Roman Catholic Church's disagreements with the Roman Catholic Church.
Just for the sake of clarity, there is a difference between the "Roman" Catholic church and "the holy catholic Church".
ReplyDeleteThe latter is a restatement of essential christian doctrine iterated in the Apostles Creed, and was not repudiated whatsoever by the Protestant Reformation. Any protestant Christian should be able to completely believe (as in notitia, assensus, fiducia) the doctrine espoused in the Apostles Creed.
Because modern evangelicals are so poorly educated regarding their heritage, they reflexively conflate the two.
Catholic does not mean "Roman Catholic" except when Roman Catholics say it.
Do not give away the language.
BFR: Did not understand the distinction. Most evangelicals are upset with what the Roman Catholic Church has become.
ReplyDeleteAs a Roman Catholic I think it is very important to distinguish between official teaching and 'reported' teaching. I would also comment that official teaching is very clear about where authority begins and ends. Unfortunately, these critical issues are often conveniently ignored.
ReplyDeleteIt is also important to remember that the church is composed of people, who are fallen and fallible. Even the teaching on papal infallibility applies ONLY on matters of faith and morals. This is not the same as matters of public policy.
I often wonder if you are upset with the official teaching or what the 'public face' of the church has become. I am rather unhappy with the latter...
Believe me, many of us Catholics are upset at what some of our elites have and are doing.
ReplyDeleteBut I think you err in saying "what the Catholic Church has become." The Church is ancient, and has weathered bad leadership before. It has not become bad, itcurrent just has some leaders who have bought into some bad ideas - including our "Pope liberation thPope eologist" Pope. But you only have to look back a few years Benedict or Pope Saint John Paul II to see some outstanding leaders and rigorous theologians.
Also, so-called Catholic Universities, for the most part, are not even close to reflective of the Church. They are CINO - Catholic in Name Only. Universities are where the worst rot happens, Catholic or secular or whatever.
"I often wonder if you are upset with the official teaching or what the 'public face' of the church has become."
ReplyDeleteBelief in the church fathers as equivalent theologically to the Bible concerns me, along with unbiblical doctrines like purgatory and celibacy. Big concern is the Church's failure to deal with its pedophile priests until an enormous number of children were damaged on several continents. When I read of children told that the priest's semen conferred a special blessing, I get enraged. It is clear that child sexual abuse plays a part in LGBT orientation. And what states were leaders in gay marriage? States with large Catholic populations: Mass., Conn., R.I. I doubt this was coincidence.
The failure to understand the distinction I would lay at the feet of modern evangelical pastors who have failed to educate their flock.
ReplyDeleteProtestant Christianity has embraced the distillation of Scriptural faith in various creeds and confessions throughout history. The Apostles’ Creed, the Nicene Creed, The Definition of Chalcedon, The Athanasian Creed, the 39 Articles of Religion, The Belgic Confession, The Heidelberg Catechism, the Canons of Dordt, and the Westminster Confession of Faith are some of these.
Here is a brief statement from Carl Trueman. Mr. Trueman is a Christian theologian and church historian. He is Professor of Historical Theology and Church History and holds the Paul Woolley Chair of Church History at Westminster Theological Seminary: "Christian world is not divided between those who have creeds and confessions and those who just have the Bible. It is actually divided between those who have creeds and confessions and write them down in a public form, open to public scrutiny and correction, and those who have them and do not write them down. The reason is simple: every church (and indeed every Christian) believes the Bible means something, and what it thinks the Bible means is its creed and confession, whether it chooses to write its beliefs down or not."
I would commend the book "The Creedal Imperative" by Trueman for more in-depth elaboration.
Remember, God said "my people perish for lack of knowledge".
"Belief in the church fathers as equivalent theologically to the Bible concerns me" - this is not Catholic doctrine. However, the Church is considered the final authority on disputes about what the Bible means. One problem with modern protestantism is that many sects lack such authority, and yet, the Bible cannot be properly understood without a lot of scholarship, which few lay people have. This is especially true of the Old Testament.
ReplyDelete"unbiblical doctrines like purgatory and celibacy" - Celibacy is not doctrine. I don't know enough to comment on purgatory.
"Big concern is the Church's failure to deal with its pedophile priests until an enormous number of children were damaged on several continents" - Yes, that was a failing. It was not and is not a feature or a characteristic of the Church. It was a temporal failing, not an immortal part of the organization, nor the fault of the vast number of Catholics and priests. Also, it is grossly exaggerated, because the number of priests in the Catholic Church is around 500,000, and the abuses were by a very small percentage. Most of that (85%) was by homosexuals who, for one reason or another, became priests, and then, for one reason or another, behaved very badly. Their actions were in direct contradiction to both church doctrine and church rules and practices. I have explained this before, but you persist in using this to characterize the Church as evil or invalid.
"And what states were leaders in gay marriage? States with large Catholic populations: Mass., Conn., R.I. I doubt this was coincidence." - Huh? That sounds like a gratuitous slur on Catholicism. The states you mention are also very liberal, and you can be sure that not all of those liberals are Catholic.
Clayton, you frequently attack the church, and I find it distressing because you attack it and yet you don't have the knowledge of the church to back up your attacks - as this exchange shows. I ask that you examine your conscience and try to understand your emotional prejudice (as in "pre-judging") that leads to this.
"However, the Church is considered the final authority on disputes about what the Bible means. One problem with modern protestantism is that many sects lack such authority, and yet, the Bible cannot be properly understood without a lot of scholarship, which few lay people have."
ReplyDeleteOne thing I mention to my students is that the excesses of the more radical Anabaptists such as John of Leiden give reason to think the Church's concerns in this matter had some merit. Eventually a Lutheran and Catholic army came together to deal with this nut.
" nor the fault of the vast number of Catholics and priests. Also, it is grossly exaggerated, because the number of priests in the Catholic Church is around 500,000, and the abuses were by a very small percentage. "
About 5% of priests ative in the US 1950s through 1970s, according to a report commissioned by the Church.
"Their actions were in direct contradiction to both church doctrine and church rules and practices. "
The problem was not a small number of misbehaving priests, but the Church's willingness to ignore it, moving pedophile priests around. One especially bad example was Father Shanley, a founder of NAMBLA. When his behavior in the Boston Archdiocese became too loud, he was moved to New York City to tun a runaway teen homeless shelter? Why? One of his letters threatened to expose financial improprieties if defrocked. Where I lived in California, a pedophile priest blackmailed the bishop over embezzlement to stay.
I do not think most Catholics or even most priests are bad people. But this apparent blindness and refusal to confront the problem did nothing to show an institution superior to the world. I understand the Church has worked hard to fix these problems. How many members of SNAP attend Mass, do you think?
But, you attack "the Church" for willingly ignoring it, rather than a few Church bureaucrats - American bishops. Bishops are also not immune to evil - they are still human. Yes, we should hold them to a high standard, but it is important to recognize that America has a quite small percentage of the total Roman Catholic Church - 6%. So condemning the Church for the actions of a small minority of a small minority is excessive.
ReplyDeleteI have explained before how some higher ups in the Church became infected with a lot of leftist American beliefs. If you take the view of psychiatry when most of this was going on, and couple it to the Christian belief in redemption, especially with Catholic reconciliation (confession), it is understandable why a number of offending priests were sent for rehabilitation and then back out into the community. They were really thought to have repented, and to have been cured. It is a far more recent (still somewhat incorrect) view that pedophilia can never be cured. Add to that the natural human tendency towards denial, and a lot of what happened turns out to be quite understandable.
If you judge people in the past by the standards of the present, you are being ahistorical. The standards in this case have to do with beliefs about redemption, effectiveness of rehabilitation, and the perceived low incidence of sexual predators. Today, we know that some of this is incorrect.
Add to that the conceptually attractive but practically unsound idea that gay priests do not represent a greater danger than heterosexual priests. After all, if priests are to be celibate, who cares what sex they do not engage in. But the fact of overwhelming percentage of abuse by homosexual priests shows, we know now but did not then, that this idea fails.
None of this excuses those higher ups who did this out of venal motives - protecting their position, or "protecting the reputation of the Church" which was really protecting their own rear ends.
So yes, there was some very bad behavior. It shouldn't have happened. But I think that condemning "the Church" is overwrought.
As to members of SNAP attending mass... I don't know, and it is irrelevant.
Finally, note that "the Church" exists as one institution, which means it is much easier to aggregate statistics into alarming numbers for it than for, say, the Presbyterian Church plus the Lutheran Church plus the hundreds of other denominations and thus make it look unusually bad. David Koresh was a child abusing pastor, and he was not a Catholic. There are lots and lots of other cases, but nobody that I am aware of aggregates it into a single entity with a single set of statistics.
As I mentioned once before, the Boy Scouts of America had this problem in a large way. A large organization I am aware of was considering joining its youth program with BSA, until it discovered this.
Any organization that works with youth attracts predators. The Catholic Church was one of these.
I understand and commend the very Christian policy of forgiveness and redemption. When first tried, this was very reasonable. But it was not just a few pedophile priests who repeatedly reoffended. At some point, this should have raised questions about whether this doctrine worked.
ReplyDeleteI agree that an institution should not be blamed for the faults of a few bureaucrats. But this problem was not confined to some American archdioceses; nor just a few countries. This problem is at least indicative of an institutional culture. The PBS documentary "Secrets of the Vatican" certainly explains how: a large gay mafia in charge of the Vatican, quite willing to excuse and protect pedophile priests (most of whom were indeed only pursuing boys).
I mention SNAP because I can think of nothing more devastating to the Church than Catholics who have removed themselves from the Church over their perception of its moral failings.
I agree that BSA has a similarly big problem, which they tried to fix and are now simply giving up on to make the world happy.
I wish the Church and its many sincere members such as yourself well on fixing this problem. The recent unwillingness of Pope Francis to take seriously the problem in Chile suggests the institutional bias against dealing with the problem is unfixed.
I believe the Church takes it seriously, but could do better. In the states, it has really changed. In my diocese, there are annual classes everyone involved or potentially involved with juveniles have to take.
ReplyDeleteI am less than impressed with Pope Francis in general. He's enamored more of liberation theology than Catholic doctrine. It is distressing.
Clayton, this link just arrived in my email. It shows that the public school situation is dramatically worse than that in the Catholic Church, while receiving virtually no attention.
ReplyDeleteI think it important as a perspective.
"The 2002 Department of Education report estimated that from 6 percent to 10 percent of all students in public schools would be victims of abuse before graduation — a staggering statistic.
Yet, outside the Catholic Church, the reaction is increasingly accommodation instead of outrage."
StormCchaser: The public schools also do not claim to represent Jesus Christ and his ministry. Call me unsurprised.
ReplyDeleteJohn Moore: Pleased and unsurprised. Most Catholics, both clergy and laity, know that representing Jesus does not include raping children. Just keep your eye on Pope Francis. A Church council resolved the problem of three popes. I am sure one could deal with the Vatican's first openly gay disco, when it comes.
ReplyDelete